How the Left Works

he is a Mccain plant
for his freind Keating

deserves all shte shit gets

#1 nick on 2008-10-16 15:10 (Reply)

Prove it.

#1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 15:13 (Reply)

Tim, much as I'd like to see useful idiots like nick be forced to put up or shut up, it's more important to recognize that he's trying to change the subject. Don't let him do it. His objection is irrelevant.

#1.1.1 tim maguire on 2008-10-16 15:19 (Reply)

Yeah, and "nick" is an Obama plant for his friend Ayers. Let's publish nick's info for all the world to see!

What a moron...

#1.2 Dar on 2008-10-16 15:15 (Reply)

"he is a Mccain plant
for his freind Keating"
So Nick, what you're telling me is that it IS important to look back in time to see who a person's freinds are?

#1.3 Mark Reardon on 2008-10-16 15:26 (Reply)

Uh He is no way related to Keating

Here are a series of article excerpts on Robert Wurzelbacher

Article from 1989-

ROBERT WURZELBACHER gave $5,000. He is president of the commercial properties division and a member of the board of directors. He lives at 2214 East Bethany Home, Phoenix.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-11-08/news/in-his-search-for-gold-bob-corbin-found-charles-keating/2/addComment

an American Continental senior vice president who headed real estate operations

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3DF1F3CF931A25751C1A967958260

Mr. Wurzelbacher, 39-article from 93'

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DE123CF930A25751C1A965958260

And finally a lookup on Intelius shows the one Robert Lee Wurzelbacher(who is not *ROBERT M. WURZELBACHER*-54YEARS OLD-FROM Scottsdale Arizona-and since The Keating Wurhlebacher was 39 in 93 he now 54 YEARS OLD!) who is SUPPOSEDLY related to Joe Wurzelbacher, and who is currently AGE 33 and from Toledo, Ohio just like Joe despite this search does not list him as a relative.

http://www.intelius.com/search-summary-out.php?ReportType=1

Democrats kiss my ass.

#1.4 LCpl Mosley on 2008-10-16 16:07 (Reply)

FEC records list a Robert M. Wurzelbacher in Arizona in the 80's and a another one in Ohio in the 90's. Same middle initial. Samuel "Joe" Wurzelbacker lived in Mesa, Arizona from 97-2000. I think its a good chance they are related. Its just too many coincidences

#1.4.1 Joe SixPack on 2008-10-16 21:48 (Reply)

Uh no, his relative is listed as the Robert Wurzelbacher of Toledo Ohio, in addition these "people searches" confuse a lot of people, hence them having multiple listings for the same person sometimes....they are not at all accurate.

He is not related to THE Wurzelberger of the Keating case....FACT.

In addition to that the Obama campaign did a "stop" IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND KNOCKED ON HIS DOOR AND OBAMA HIMSELF STARTED THE CONVERSATION BY ASKING HIM TO VOTE FOR HIM....This dude LIVES THERE, is listed as living there by everybody.

He didn't go to Obama, Obama went to him and he does work for Newell Plumbing...thats a fact.

There is a Samuel J. Wurzelbacher in Tuscon other than the match for Joe the plumber in an Intelius search.

There are no coincidences here...just bs.

#1.4.1.1 LCpl Mosley on 2008-10-17 15:02 (Reply)

If Nick could spell he'd be dangerous. Insomuch as he can't spell, he is just another True Believer that drank B-HO's Kool-Aid.

#1.5 J Richardson on 2008-10-16 16:30 (Reply)

obama went ot his house how could he be a plant idiot...joe is a priviat citizan asking a question

#1.6 Anonymous on 2008-11-07 18:36 (Reply)

Your a piece of work Nick. Instead of focusing on the issue that is raised, Dems instead focus on the person who said it. I guess they can defend the 'spread your money around' comment without showing their truely RED colors.

#2 ASimpleDad on 2008-10-16 15:13 (Reply)

Oh yes, I can easily visualize Keating and his BF Joe out slumming on the local golf course.

#3 mcnorman (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 15:17 (Reply)

Just a taste of what's in store whenthe Chosen One and his Thugocracy take power.

#4 Bilwick on 2008-10-16 15:20 (Reply)

Vote Democrat, get Big Brother, your choice.

Go Joe!. Democrat = Socialist.

You have a lot more friends than enemies! LOL!

#5 steve m. on 2008-10-16 15:21 (Reply)

I see. So sliming a messenger is a uniquely left wing tactic? Please. I won't even bother crying hypocrisy, because neither party has a monopoly over that.

#6 bill on 2008-10-16 15:21 (Reply)

Demonstrably, this despicable tactic is one that is currently being employed by the left wing.

However, I challenge you to show me where Tom Elia ever said that this tactic was exclusive to the Left. He never did -- your claim of it being a "uniquely" left wing tactic is entirely invented, and Tom never said that.

"Both sides do it" is not a defense, BTW. When people on the Right engage in this tactic, they should be condemned for it too.

#6.1 Robin Munn on 2008-10-16 15:29 (Reply)

Damned right.

#6.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 15:32 (Reply)

The title, "How the Left Works," clearly suggests that it is how the Left and not the Right works.

Please point me to any condemnation of similar tactics undertaken by the Right on this or other right-leaning blogs. It bothers me that blogs of both sides are sorely lacking in introspection and are simply echo chambers.

#6.1.2 Anonymous on 2008-10-16 15:39 (Reply)

You appear to be learning impaired, but I'll point it out once again: 'tu quoque' is not a valid response.

Plus: point me to an example of similar tactics by the right before we go looking for the condemnation.

#6.1.2.1 David Gillies (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 15:51 (Reply)

I understand I am in unfriendly territory, but calling me learning impaired? Really?

I agree that "both sides do it" is not a defense (and nice use of latin), but the mock outrage still gets to me.

Look at attacks on Stephen Branchflower for doing his job in investigating and drafting a report on the Monegan issue:
http://macsmind.com/wordpress/2008/10/11/who-is-steve-branchflower/

#6.1.2.1.1 bill on 2008-10-16 16:13 (Reply)

Don't be so hard on Nick. It was awfully good of him to stop by and underline Mr. Elia's point.

#7 Mister Snitch (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 15:26 (Reply)

I'm a Democrat, and I'm appalled at this behavior on the part of the rabid left (Daily KOS, Democratic Underground) that has all too obviously taken over my party.

As for Nick, you might want to learn to spell. Here, I'll help: it's "McCain" not "Mccain." And, it's "friend," NOT "freind." Lastly, it's "the" not "shte." But you did spell "shit" correctly, kudos to you.

#8 Eric (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 15:29 (Reply)

deserves all shte shit gets

Can someone translate this bit of incoherence for me?

#9 Sunflower on 2008-10-16 15:31 (Reply)

To understand it, I'm afraid you will need to turn your "De-spittle" filter all the way up to 11.

#9.1 OCBill on 2008-10-16 15:38 (Reply)

I guess he was trying to say "the shit" but the festering tumor he has in place of a working brain got a little confused.

#9.2 mightysamurai on 2008-10-16 15:43 (Reply)

If Obama wins, you can substitute DOJ and IRS for Daily Kos and Democratic Underground.

#10 OCBill on 2008-10-16 15:36 (Reply)

Possibly, but if so, we can always go Spartacus on them. They can't investigate EVERYBODY, and even if they could, it would get boring really fast.

#10.1 dicentra on 2008-10-17 01:02 (Reply)

Can we expect more of this in the future? What happens if this becomes the normal way the left chooses to deal with all of their opponents? That certainly appears to be the trend.

This is meant as intimidation designed to silence citizens that ask inconvenient questions. Joe the Plumber won't be the last to feel their wrath. Anyone can be a target.

#11 Pundit Joe (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 15:40 (Reply)

The funny thing is, the guy was playing football in his own front yard when Obama walked up to him.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

Quote:
Mr. Wurzelbacher was playing football in his front yard with his son, Joey, on Sunday afternoon when Mr. Obama made an unscheduled stop to go door to door greeting voters and asking for their support.

But that will not prevent Insane Andrew from claiming that this is some kind of McCain operation.

#12 Kevin P. on 2008-10-16 15:47 (Reply)

TO: Tom Elia, et al.
RE: How They Work

It's not just with Joe the Plumber. It's just about EVERYWHERE I look.

For example...

....we have THIS REPORT via Drudge Report.

Then, I recollect how, when the distaff ran for local state house of reps, business owners refused to put up her signage for fear of losing business, neighbors refused to do the same or make donations as they indicated they'd be 'kicked out of the synagogue' for supporting a Republican.

The Democrats, for all intents and purposes are nothing more than Hitler-esque thugs. And if they don't like the comparison....

....maybe they should take a REAL CLOSE LOOK at themselves.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. -- Thomas Jefferson]

P.S. President Thomas Jefferson was one of the first Democrats.

He'd change parties if he were alive today.

#13 Chuck Pelto on 2008-10-16 15:51 (Reply)

TO: All
RE: This System....

....seems to have REAL serious issues with links.

Here's the link to the article I mentioned in my previous comment....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/11/AR2008101101465_pf.html

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Good user interface is the hobgoblin of blog-site design.]

#14 Chuck Pelto on 2008-10-16 15:53 (Reply)

Sorry, we have had all kinds of problems with our comments section since we were hacked by someone during the spring...

#14.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 15:55 (Reply)

He didn't pay all his taxes?

Hey, just like Charlie Rangel and Al Franken!

#15 DelD on 2008-10-16 16:00 (Reply)

Go, ahead, Kos-heads. Destroy Joe Wurzelbacher for asking a question that embarassed the Chosen One. But, you can't destroy all the Joe the Butchers, or Joe the Mechanics, or Joe the A/C Guys, or Joe the Bakers, or Joe the Shop Owners of this great nation. They all heard BHO LOUD AND CLEAR

#16 Phil on 2008-10-16 16:03 (Reply)

First they came for the plumbers. . . .

#17 Bilwick on 2008-10-16 16:06 (Reply)

Apparently it was a Rovian plot for Obama to pick out Joe's neighborhood. Karl, you magnificent bastard!

#18 swassociates on 2008-10-16 16:07 (Reply)

Don't you liberals get it? I don't care if it is the long lost son of John McCain and Sarah Palin's brother. Who he is, is not the point. The point is Obama's answer to his question.

"Share the wealth." as in redistribute it, because I barrack obama who have never run anything in my life knows better how to spend your money better than you do.

#19 A.W. on 2008-10-16 16:14 (Reply)

Joe's home address is a Google search away. Koz didn't publish it. They republished it. And if the guy is going to bitch about taxes, his tax liens are relevant. Same goes for someone who identifies himself as a plumber but isn't licensed.

I do sympathize with him, though. He's a semipublic figure who has now become famous. Wouldn't you think that, before they decided to put him at the centerpiece of the debate, that the McCain campaign would have done some basic checking?

McCain had to know that Joe would get 15 minutes of fame. To thrust him into the spotlight without first making sure that his story checked out was yet one more example of McCain's poor judgment.

#20 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 16:21 (Reply)

Come on, the Daily Kos poster published the guy's address for one reason, and you know it.

The notion that you print that someone has a tax lien and that therefore he is a 'tax cheat' is pure crap, as anyone who has had financial trouble can tell you.

Additionally, the idea that someone is a plumber or a carpenter or landscaper because he doesn't have a government license is utter nonsense.

To me, this shows the true colors of those who attack the guy...

#20.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 16:38 (Reply)

Magic Dog, you're attacking the person who asked the question, rather than the question itself. In case you weren't aware, that's called an "ad hominem" attack and is usually taken to mean that you can't answer the question.

#20.2 Bloodsong on 2008-10-16 16:50 (Reply)

I haven't attacked anyone. Joe doesn't bother me. I never took him seriously to begin with, and McCain's constant mention of Joe was pathetic. I mean, there's a reason why all of the snap polls (even FauxNews's) showed Obama winning last night's debate.

At this point, I'm not laughing at Joe. I genuinely feel kind of sorry for him, especially if he's really the ordinary schlub that he appears to be and not some campaign operative.

If there's any "outrage" to feel here, it ought to be at the McCain campaign for not firing up browser and doing a Google search and paying $20 for one of those Infosearch background checks before loosing their senile candidate upon 50 million people with multiple mentions of poor Joe the (Not, as it turns out) Plumber.

The bad judgment is, once again, with the McCain campaign.

#20.2.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:22 (Reply)

I feel sorry for you and the world you live in.

You don't like what some private citizen says, so it's okay to attempt to destroy them?

Wow...

#20.2.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:24 (Reply)

So, Republican, someone tells you the truth and is detroys you? What do you melt?

#20.2.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:28 (Reply)

Wow.

I feel sorry for you...

#20.2.1.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:31 (Reply)

Thanks, Tom. Your sincerity means everything to me.

#20.2.1.1.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:51 (Reply)

Anything for a stand-up guy like you!

#20.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:53 (Reply)

Magic Dog:

The "politics of personal destruction" (ppd) are viewed by the American people as tolerable when they are practiced by politicians against other politicians.

PPD is viewed as icky, but okay, when the person is a volunteer in an add run by a politician or a political group.

Joe isn't a politician. Joe isn't a volunteer in an ad.

Joe is an ordinary citizen, who was minding his own business in his own front yard, when Obama personally walked up to *him*.

Attacking Joe is *un*acceptable. And it's stupid.

Why? It reminds people what they don't like about amoral Democrats. And it's a built-in replay, over and over again, of Barack Obama's socialism advocacy.

"Spread the wealth." Huey Long used to call it "Share the wealth." Either way, its a step taken by those who think FDR was too conservative.

Not a winner. A loser.

#20.2.1.2 David Rogers (Homepage) on 2008-10-17 16:43 (Reply)

Instead of arguing with Nick, how about something productive?

BHO has only very rarely been challenged, so if JtP had asked BHO a really tough question there's no telling how he would have responded.

What we need to do is find people who have experience asking tough questions, come up with the tough questions for them to ask, and then go send them to BHO appearances with video cameras. BHO's responses to their questions can then be uploaded to Youtube.

Details at my name's link, and please contact those listed and urge them to get behind this plan.

#21 The details: (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 16:23 (Reply)

"BHO has only very rarely been challenged, so if JtP had asked BHO a really tough question there's no telling how he would have responded."

We know. Iowahawk did a bit on it. Obama sans teleprompter usually goes something like this: "Umm, hummunuh blabbada er, I, uh, I, umm, I... I... I..., ah, hold on, hold on, hold on...."

Empty suit.

#21.1 Trouble on 2008-10-16 16:36 (Reply)

By the way, I don't think there was a rope line involved. I thought Obama was going door to door. I have to figure that people were asked if they'd be willing to be on camera, so I doubt Joe was taken completely by surprise.

But really, who is it that turned Joe into a (temporary) national celebrity? Obama? Nope. He didn't bring it up. Daily Kos? Nope. They were reacting. John McCain turned Joe into a celebrity, and apparently he was willing to do so without ever doing any checking on Joe.

As for any link to Keating Five, well, the media is checking on that as we argue. If Joe is related to Robert J. Wurzelbacher, we'll know soon enough. It's kind of interesting that Joe lived on Keating Avenue in Mesa, Arizona during the trials of the conspirators, but that could just be coincidence. Like I say, we'll see.

#22 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 16:36 (Reply)

I could hardly have done a better job writing a parody of leftist spin than you've crapped out in sincerity. Shame on you.

You want to talk about McCain's judgement? How about the lack of moral judgement being displayed by Kos et all, yourself included? There is no litmus test for a citizen to speak their mind in this country.

You have a problem with Joe the Plumber's comments then you should engage them, don't smear him. Explain to us all why sharing the wealth is awesome.

#22.1 Sortelli on 2008-10-16 17:06 (Reply)

Of course when I think about it, McCain really should expect you guys to behave in the most reprehensible way possible, so yeah. I guess you got a point.

#22.1.1 Sortelli on 2008-10-16 17:32 (Reply)

Joe's comments were garden variety Republican propaganda. They didn't bother me, because I'm used to such things over the years. And I happened to have thought it was comical for McCain to lean so heavily on such a hackneyed rhetorical crutch.

I also think that Joe's not being a licensed plumber is amusing, and that his not having paid taxes is amusing. The only possible worthy objection I can see to all of this is that a diarist at Kos (which I think is a foolish website, by the way) re-published a document that contained Joe's address.

But I don't think that's a problem, because ANYONE's address is public record. It doesn't take more than 10 minutes to get it by clicking around, and I'm overestimating.

All of this protest is just one more example of Republican faux-outrage. First off, had the shoe been on the other foot you know you'd have done the same thing. Second, the one who made Joe a temporary celebrity is John McCain. If you want to complain, find a mirror.

#22.1.2 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:02 (Reply)

I call bullshit on you!

#22.1.2.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:14 (Reply)

And are you going to kick and scream and stamp your little feet too?! Hold your breath until you turn blue, maybe?!

#22.1.2.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:26 (Reply)

Well, no.

#22.1.2.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:29 (Reply)

Oh darn. Couldn't you at least cry real loud then?

#22.1.2.1.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:43 (Reply)

I love it when you get your anonymous Internet muscles -- you sound so very tough!

So very, very!

#22.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:51 (Reply)

Tom, trolls are rarely as anonymous as they think. Check your referrer logs and put up dogsh*t's IP addy; some good elf can take it from there.

#22.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 SDN on 2008-10-17 07:35 (Reply)

more americans can identify with joe, than any of the other candidates...

please, pretty please, let the msm destroy this guy-

it's about winning battles, but failing to recognize that they can lose a war.

#23 mark l. on 2008-10-16 16:42 (Reply)

Good lord, what is this whining like a six year old "but they did it, too".

It's wrong. This guy is a private citizen who has done nothing more than being approached by a politician and exercising his right as a citizen to ask questions of the people requesting his vote.

The idea that he has to be crucified is obnoxious beyond belief.

#24 kat-mo (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 16:42 (Reply)

No one's been "crucified," but someone's been exposed. I sympathize with Joe, I really do, at least if he's not some campaign operative -- which, unless some new fact comes to light I don't think he is.

That said, if you call yourself a plumber but don't have a license, and you bitch about taxes but don't pay your taxes, and you do all of this in front of 50 million people, then you can expect someone to check it out.

I do realize that this is just one more bit of Republican faux-outrage, but in case anyone is actually upset, you need to register your complaint with the McCain campaign for not vetting Joe more carefully.

#24.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:16 (Reply)

The hell? McCain didn't make Joe the issue, Obama did, with his phony door-to-door care-about-the-proles schtick, and his clumsy (at best) answer to Joe's reasonable (and hypothetical, let's remember) question.

#24.1.1 Mars vs Hollywood on 2008-10-17 04:38 (Reply)

battles...

kos sends his minions to burn down joe's house and kill his dog.

msm exposes his 'shady' side and points to his financial failings to humiliate the guy.

It's as if the media and kos believe that can incite a mob, but fail to see their responsiblity.

he may become the victim of everything 'obama', and win the election for mccain.

#25 mark l. on 2008-10-16 16:46 (Reply)

Daily Kos will send people to kill Joe's dog?! So THAT is what they meant when they shouted "Kill him!"

Oops, wrong rally.

#25.1 Anonymous on 2008-10-16 17:01 (Reply)

I don't think it's a crucifixion to point out that Joe the Republican Plumber hasn't paid his taxes and isn't a licensed plumber. Those are facts about Joe, and in the context of the discussion they are relevant facts.

McCain's campaign is the one who decided they'd turn Joe into a spokesman. They ought to have vetted him. But then, given how much vetting they didn't do with their VP nominee, can we really be surprised?

#26 Anonymous on 2008-10-16 16:46 (Reply)

You're so full of it, you're leaking sludge...

#26.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 16:50 (Reply)

26 is right. Joe became fair game when McCain used his name 20 times in the debate and he decided to give dozens of interviews to the media the night of the debate and this morning. There's nothing wrong with attacking him for not paying his taxes when the whole thesis behind him is about tax policy.

#26.1.1 amouse on 2008-10-16 17:18 (Reply)

I disagree completely.

Certainly, his advocacy for certain ideas became fair game, but not his personal business.

The fact that he owes taxes doesn't make him a 'tax cheat' either, by the way, which is what the Kos poster asserted.

And arguing that not being able to pay one's tax bill on time would somehow call into question one's argument for or against a certain tax policy is a stretch, to say the least.

Instead, one might argue that it augments, rather than detracts from, the man's belief about taxes being too high for certain taxpayers -- as he himself is having trouble paying his.

#26.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 17:27 (Reply)

Like I've said, if Joe is really just an innocent bystander here, then I have to have some sympathy for him. The last thing on earth that I'd want to do is have 15 minutes of fame. That said, it didn't seem to particularly bother him today, did it?

This is faux-outrage, Republican style. If this had been the other way around, you'd have done the same thing. In fact, your side did exactly that. Remember the family of the kid who the Democrats made into the poster-child for S-CHIP? Do you remember what the right wing did to them?

Look, if you're going to call yourself a plumber, then have a license. If you're going to bitch about paying taxes, then pay your taxes. And if you're going to make a tax delinquent Not Plumber your Everyman Hero, you'd better check him out first.

#26.1.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:08 (Reply)

Absolutely shameful.

And Sullivan becomes more unbelievable all the time. A couple weeks ago he was wailing and gnashing his teeth because his hateful Trig-truther emails to the McCain campaign were forwarded to Howard Kurtz. He saw this as persecution for "committing the crime of journalism."

But apparently it's okay to go after Joe for committing the crime of citizenship.

#27 denise on 2008-10-16 17:02 (Reply)

No one went after the guy for "committing citizenship." They pointed out that he's not a licensed plumber, and that he's delinquent on his taxes. McCain's campaign should have checked out Joe and his background before turning him into their spokesmodel.

#27.1 Anonymous on 2008-10-16 18:13 (Reply)

They didn't turn into their spokesman for Chrissakes...

#27.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 18:32 (Reply)

They most certainly did. Joe the Not Plumber is a celebrity because John McCain made him one.

#27.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:10 (Reply)

Isn't it amazing how much can happen when someone asks Obama a straight question?

#28 chomp on 2008-10-16 17:03 (Reply)

Andrew Sullivan makes the words "The Sullivan Act" even more icky.

#29 ninth stage (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 17:12 (Reply)

Bill fails to understand the actual Leftist MO here.

That is: when you want to get away with something, first you accuse the other side of doing it first. If it sticks enough, that's your go ahead to do it yourself -- so when you get caught, you just say "Well, everybody's doing it"...
say that often enough, the action in question is not part of the regular toolset, people become cynical about it, and another element of public trust is destroyed.

That's what happened with voter fraud: the squeaker 2000 election gave the Left the opening they needed. They were able to get the "stolen election" meme to persist well enough that they can now engage, via ACORN and other channels, in massive voter fraud -- with the 2000 election myth in the pocket as the ready defense ("But they do it too!").

Of course, the collateral damage is erosion of the public trust in any election, but that's all part and parcel of how to seize power for good.

#30 Seerak on 2008-10-16 17:17 (Reply)

So the lunatics DO think looking into someones background is important.

"I don't think it's a crucifixion to point out that Joe the Republican Plumber hasn't paid his taxes and isn't a licensed plumber. Those are facts about Joe, and in the context of the
discussion they are relevant facts."

In what way does this mitigate Obama's statement that he wants to redistribute someone else's wealth?

#31 buzz on 2008-10-16 17:25 (Reply)

Not at all does it mitigate Obama's statement. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the "cruelty" of the left wingers for bringing up some facts that impeach Joe's credibility, one being that he doesn't have a plumbing license and the other being that he's delinquent on his taxes.

Come on, if the shoe was on the other foot you know that the right wingers would take advantage of it. I'm not so high on publishing Joe's home address, but that was done in the context of publishing a document that is easily obtained via Google. Fact is that no one's home address is secret for very long these days.

I genuinely sympathize with Joe. The last thing on earth I'd ever want anyone to do is turn me into a celebrity for telling a political candidate what I think. Actually for any reason. But who did that? The McCain campaign did that. Not the lefties.

#31.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 18:19 (Reply)

Those things were brought up about Joe to intimidate him, not to 'impeach his credibility' ...

#31.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 18:33 (Reply)

I suppose it might be a little intimidating if you call yourself a plumber but have no license, and if you bitch about taxes but haven't paid them. That's life. Someone in the McCain campaign should have vetted their spokesmodel.

#31.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:12 (Reply)

Wow, you're not very in touch with real people, are you?

#31.1.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:15 (Reply)

You have a point. I've been talking to way too many Republicans today. Time to get back to the real world.

#31.1.1.1.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:24 (Reply)

See ya.

Tell the other digital brownshirts I said, "hello."

#31.1.1.1.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 19:27 (Reply)

Nonsense.

None of this has a darned thing to do with Plumber Joe. It's displaced anger at Barack Obama for stupidly revealing that he's nothing more than a garden-variety socialist. Progressives had hoped they could keep that fact hidden from the voting public and Obama just gave it up for free.

But they can't criticize Obama. So they're going to tear into a private citizen who has the misfortune of thinking he could speak his mind in a free nation without being assaulted by a howling mob of brownshirts.

#31.1.2 Jimmie (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 18:44 (Reply)

If and when Joe is "assaulted by a howling mob of brownshirts," I will be the first to express his anti-brownshirt sympathies.

In the meantime, the right wing really needs to climb down off the wall. Criticism is not assault. It is criticism.

Joe, don't call yourself a plumber if you're not a licensed plumber. Pay your taxes. McCain, pick your spokespeople more carefully.

#31.1.2.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 18:53 (Reply)

You sir, are full of crap!

#31.1.2.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 18:57 (Reply)

Dog, you're ducking the issue again.

I figured you would, since that's all you apparently have.

Barack Obama said something true and incredibly dumb. If that ticks you off, take it out on him. Don't take it out on the guy who reasonably criticized Obama after the man came up to him on his own front lawn.

Now, don't you have a shirt-fitting to attend or something? I understand that even though they're mostly brown, they'll have that spiffy colorful Obama logo on them, so that's all right.

#31.1.2.1.2 Jimmie (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 20:21 (Reply)

What a crock of shite the Dems are.

Nobody forced Obama to answer the way he did in an organic, spontaneous manner. The answer was what the answer was because Obama really does want to spread the wealth. Period.

No amount of demonizing the question/or questioner can refute the answer.

#32 USA First on 2008-10-16 17:54 (Reply)

Don't you all realize this is not going to sway a single undecided voter?

#33 Greg on 2008-10-16 19:35 (Reply)

You are absolutely correct, Greg. Couldn't possibly agree more. It's entirely a tempest in a teapot.

#33.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:42 (Reply)

Do you know who I bet is really pissed? Joe's employer. Turns out he's not licensed either, so it looks like the business is going to be shut down. How'd you like to be a fly on the wall of THAT living room today?

#34 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:45 (Reply)

Incidentally, you know what the crowning touch is? Last year, Joe made $40,000. Obama's tax and health care plans would help him a lot more than anything McCain would do. Oh well. Good luck, Joe. Probably should have kept your mouth shut.

#35 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 19:56 (Reply)

Datz rite! Shoulda keptiz mout' shut.

Punch 10...

#35.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-16 20:00 (Reply)

Tom, how old are you?

#35.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 20:12 (Reply)

Old enough to know that you're an anonymous Internet muscle-boy.

#35.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-17 00:30 (Reply)

Oh, that's great advice.

"Should have kept your mouth shut"?

So much for freedom of speech, huh?

Say something against The One and find yourself hounded out of work. Luckily they haven't demanded that he get tattooed or anything.

Yet.

#35.2 Jimmie (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 20:23 (Reply)

Remember the kid who was in ads about the SCHIP program? The right looked into the familes money, etc, and the left said that was bad...hmmm, now they are doing the same thing.

#36 Aaron on 2008-10-16 20:26 (Reply)

Or vice-versa, Aaron. The wingnuts dragged that family through the mud, and when it was all through there was nothing untoward about them or their financial picture.

This time, Joe the plumber is unlicensed, and so is his employer. And Joe is delinquent on his taxes. John MCNasty goes out and parades the story in front of 50 million people, and now you're shocked, just shocked, that anyone checked it out.

Gimme a break, wingnut hypocrite!

#36.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 20:36 (Reply)

Oh lookie, a new talking point!

Okay, let's set this one straight, too. The Democrats, who put the family in public view to the point where they let the 12 year old boy give a radio address, misrepresented the family's financial status and their status with S-CHIP. Their work status had a direct bearing on the case that the Democrats were making. They were not who the Dems said their were.

In this case, Plumber Joe was minding his own damned business when Barack Obama walked up on him and started his campaigning. No Republican plucked Joe up and stuck him in front of a TV camera as a victim. Barack Obama went to him. Barack Obama made the stupidly honest statement.

And you can't face that. So you'll come up with every other possible rationale to drag the guy through the mud and wreck his livelihood instead of facing the truth - that you've backed just another left-wing hack politician.

Problem is, you and your political buddies made a huge mistake. You decided to play fascist right out in the open where everyone can see. Your desperation is palpable.

#36.1.1 Jimmie (Homepage) on 2008-10-17 00:52 (Reply)

"John MCNasty goes out and parades the story in front of 50 million people,"

You got it ass backwards commie sympathizer. Barrack questioned this guy and didn't like the answer, so he had his knees capped Chicago style.

#37 Obama's Butt Buddy Ayers on 2008-10-16 21:12 (Reply)

There's an iron law of Ameican elections: It is impossible for a Democrat to win until some crazy fucking wingnut has accused the Democrats of being a communist, a homosexual, or both. Congratulations, drooling wacko! Now I know we'll win!

#37.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 22:14 (Reply)

I guess I have to go back and watch the video again. I don't recall Joe referring to himself as a plumber; only that he wanted to buy the plumbing business from his boss. The Toolroom flunky could buy the business from the boss, and he doesn't have to be a registered plumber. So many are missing the point, which is that Joe-Nobody dare not confront a Communist about destroying the American Dream without fear of having Joe's entire life destroyed by "the party of the people". Death to all tyrants!

#38 O. Tradesman on 2008-10-16 22:09 (Reply)

And all the while, Obama just keeps palavering about how much he regrets and eschews distractions that keep us from talking about issues and policy...

Seems to me that he let the mask slip, and that he needed to try and get folks to stop talking about the issue he accidentally spoke to during his exchange with the plumber...

Ah yes, a return to the bad old days of the Democrat's employment of the tactic they made up and that the Clinton's transformed into high art; *the politics of personal destruction*...

All this brought to you by the *most transparent, ethical, post-racial, post-partisan, aisle-crossing, rift-healing politician-EVAH!*...

#39 Bob on 2008-10-16 22:15 (Reply)

Hey Bob, a question: Are you, a Republican, now whining about life not being fair?! Tough shit, crybaby! Get used to it! Eight more years!! Ha ha ha ha ha!!

#40 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 22:18 (Reply)

I know that all those Obama supporters out there want to change the subject to Joe but the fact is that Mr. O let slip his real world view of how he will fix the current crisis and it means that we all had better hang onto our wallets if we have any money in them because we know now the PLAN:

Redistribution of wealth..YOURS..that is and "The One" gets to choose which individual or group will reap the benefits of YOUR hard earned money.

It's your patriotic duty after all.

And a windfall for groups like Acorn, any project Ayers is connected to, and other liberal groups who probably not share your philosophy. Which is exactly why redistribution which is done is the name of "fairness" turns out to be so fundamentally unfair.

Let's not get distracted by agruments like Joe isn't a real plumber, he just does plumbing for a living ...what a bunch of literalists liberals can be.

Obama let slip a major compoment of his economic plan and it's not likely to warm the hearts of middle class people who work hard, expect and deserve to reap the rewards of their own labor.

That's the REAL news about this story!

#40.1 AquariusStar on 2008-10-16 23:13 (Reply)

Republicans have a real problem with reading comprehension. Was it not one of the subjects taught in the Christian academy that you attended? Did Mom's Homeschool skip over that one?

This thread is not about Obama's economic plan. Go back and read the original post. It was about the supposed meanness of the lefties for exposing Joe the Plumber for not having a plumbing license and for evading his taxes, and for republishing his home address.

If you want to debate Obama's remark about spreading the wealth, that's fine. But it's not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether there was anything wrong with exposing Joe the (Not) Plumber.

Republicans just hate it when someone learns the truth and publishes it. This is something that deeply confuses you.

#40.1.1 Anonymous on 2008-10-16 23:50 (Reply)

Dog, I'd have to say you have the problem here. You keep saying that the lefties' meanness towards Joe is justified because his lack of a plumbing license (that he doesn't need) and his tax lien are somehow relevant. Please explain how. The only thing that happened here is that he asked Obama a question, and Obama gave the only truthful answer he's given in months, and it has embarrassed him. The particulars of the poor schmuck who asked the question are not relevant to what Obama said -- and therefore cannot justify the crap the lefties are throwing at him. By your standard, all of your peccadilloes are now fair game, because you have dared to speak publicly.
Oh, and as for the kid who the Dems put on the radio to talk about S-Chip? He didn't get pilloried, his parents did. Because they made the kid lie about their health insurance situation in order to get him on the radio. There's a difference, doncha think?

#40.1.1.1 Dave on 2008-10-17 00:16 (Reply)

Republicans regard the truth as "mean." You always have done so. If a lie sounds cuter, at least from your side, you've always preferred the lie.

In fact, it does matter if Joe doesn't have a plumbing license. Check again, Dave. He's not allowed to work without one. Not that something so trivial as "the law" ever stopped a Republican. You haven't believed in obeying "the law" for many years.

The truth is that Joe the Plumber isn't a plumber. The truth is that Joe who hated taxes is a tax delinquent. The truth is that Joe the entrepreneur is in no way even close to being in a position to buy the company he works for.

The truth is that your "outrage" is phony, just as is every other thing about the Republican Party. The truth is that an American public that is thorough disgusted with you and your slimy lies is going to give you and your stinking McJerk a thrashing you'll not soon forget.

Tell yourselves all the lies you want to. You prefer lies, so there is no doubt you'll make up some new ones soon enough. But the truth is that, in the real world, you are on a fast train for the wilderness. Take your coat. It's cold out there, motherfucker.

#40.1.1.1.1 Anonymous on 2008-10-17 00:25 (Reply)

You're dodging the question. Why is it relevant? Try to answer with a little more than a snotty assertion.

#40.1.1.1.1.1 Dave on 2008-10-17 00:28 (Reply)

I feel sorry for this country when these asshats get to pretend they're in charge.

#40.1.1.1.1.2 Dave on 2008-10-17 00:42 (Reply)

the whole premise of your post is faulty because obama did not "out" joe the plumber to anyone. McCain did.and he did it to score political points- which are now boomaranging back in his face.

#41 problembear (Homepage) on 2008-10-16 23:03 (Reply)

Say - What is the difference between Jesus and Ob_ma -may-his-name-be-praised,????

Answer: Jesus never shiv'd anyone for asking him a question.

#42 Californio on 2008-10-16 23:18 (Reply)

First off, no one shiv'd Joe for asking a question, either. Secondly, where did you ever get Barack Obama and Jesus confused, anyway?

#42.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-16 23:45 (Reply)

I get them easily confused because I have to spend all day listening to Obama supporters like Louis Farrakhan call him the Messiah.

#42.1.1 Dave on 2008-10-17 00:19 (Reply)

THIS was the “game changer.”

NOT the debate, NOT an Obama or McCain ad, just plain old American life as it happens in its wonderfully chaotic, unpredictable way.

To the moral relativists of the Left, SOCIALISM is "just another, equally valid system."

Yah. Uh huh.

You and the rest of the online media need to HANG THIS ON OBAMA’S THUGGERY. No, this specific act cannot be laid directly on Obama, but on the intolerance, arrogance, extremism, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH which he spreads.

Simply witness the vitriol here.

Toledo’s thugs are just RIDING THE OBAMA BANDWAGON. THEY are the criminals here, not some fellow who doesn’t have a license or has minimal liens (as does Obama’s treasurer, not that anyone of import seems to care about that…ahem).

But it is THAT BANDWAGON riding into town that will soon be threatening each of us if we do not act now as each of us can.

PLEASE, "The New Editor" and Company - hang this on Obama, from here to election day.

MAKE THIS THE HORSE HE RIDES OUT OF TOWN ON.

#43 Ed Wallis on 2008-10-17 04:44 (Reply)

Joe was a stupid fake and he boldly made a fool of himself and McCain who's campaign hadn't 'vetted' him to see if he was legit. "Joe" didn't have the money to buy the business and maybe lost his boss some contracts for his showing off on national TV. He also isn't much of a plumber apparently. Just a lower level employee with delusions of grandeur.

My first time at New Speak. Typical Right Wing terrorist site. If Obama gets elected I expect the Traitors will roundly attack him and try to destroy democracy Here.

#44 datadave on 2008-10-17 07:55 (Reply)

Why is Joe a fake?

Because, although he works as a plumber, he isn't seen as such by the City of Toledo?

#44.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-17 09:29 (Reply)

Andrew Sullivan used to be in the bag for McCain. I still wonder what happened. But I praise his work to uncover the lack of a tax license and Joe's real first name. And the first question that popped in my head when I first heard of Joe is still relevant: Why are we discussing someone who says they are going to buy a business instead of someone who actually owns one?

Aren't the Libritarians and small business owners out there a little peeved that Joe got all the attention when they are already contributing as entrepreneurs? Where's their 15 minutes?

So we have a borderline-potential small business owner complaining about potentially higher federal income taxes before two potential presidents and it's all being criticized by the Right Wing in their classic faux outrage.

Entertaining to say the least.

#45 Dhalgren (Homepage) on 2008-10-17 10:55 (Reply)

You certainly seem to have a handle on the nub of the controversy. Yes, indeed.

Well done.

Do us all a favor and buy some condoms and/or spermicide, will ya?

#45.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-17 15:58 (Reply)

Turns out Obama never came to Joe's house, but that Joe went looking for Obama. One more Republican lie!

#46 Magic Dog on 2008-10-17 23:42 (Reply)

Spin away, 'Magic Dog'!

#46.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-18 09:28 (Reply)

To a Republican, the truth is mere "spin."

#46.1.1 Magic Dog on 2008-10-18 12:47 (Reply)

You're so full of it, really.

#46.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-18 14:51 (Reply)

Joe the unplumber is not in trouble for asking a question. He is in deep for not having either a plumber's license or a license as an apprentice. The rules are the rules. I can't call myself a doctor and work in a hospital just because that is my dream. Joe would have gotten a nice tax break since he was making less than 250,000 a year.

#47 Craig on 2008-10-18 19:37 (Reply)

As we all know, not having a license disqualifies him from calling himself a plumber.

And make no mistake, Joe is in trouble for asking a question of Chicago Democrat Barack Obama.

Punch 10...

#47.1 Tom Elia on 2008-10-18 22:12 (Reply)

It is not out-of-date information? Because I have other data on this theme. http://hotsalego.com/map.html

#48 johnybestftom (Homepage) on 2008-11-12 04:18 (Reply)

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