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Wednesday, June 10. 2009Shooting at National Holocaust MuseumTrackbacks
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NBC News says shooter, James W. Von Brunn, is 89. Ties to white supremacist groups. Prior convictions. His bio and photo on hate group website here:
http://www.holywesternempire.org/bio.html
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/061009_2_shot_inside_dc_holocaust_museum
This is the guy allegedly
Looks like conservatives were off-base again when they bitched about the DHS report on right-wing extremists.
The assassination of Dr. Tiller, the shooting at the National Holocaust Museum...Hmmm... A little too "right-wing extreme" for me.
The guy's certainly a nut job, that's for sure.
He's anti-black, anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, and tried a 'citizen's arrest' at the Fed in the early 80s. Does he really fit the description of a right-wing extremist to you, or is he just an off-the-wall nut-job with a criminal record apparently dating back to the Reagan Administration? So far, you have cited as examples what appear to be two mentally-ill people who acted out their extremist, nut-job fantasies -- but failed to note the killing of a soldier at a recruitment center. Is it possible you are making political judgments before we have all the pertinent info? Seems that way to me...
Well we've also got 4 converted muslims trying to blow up a synagogue and shot down planes in New York, and the muslim shooter of the army recruiter.
Oh yes because all jew-haters are right-wing in your tiny mind. How is national socialism right-wing except in the warped world of the extreme left? "Socialism" is a good clue that its not right-wing.
So I'm guessing Jeremiah Wright in "rignt-wing" too?
Obviously it was Obama's anti-Semitism that drove the guy to do this.
Was Reverend Wright on the scene? The drooling left-wing cretins had better check their sources. All indications are that this guy is pro-Obama, as most of the "so-right-they're-left" groups did.
"Democrats are fascists"? Seriously?
Way to add constructively to the comments...
"MSNBC's Pete Williams is reporting that the shooter (James Wittiker Von Brunn (sp?), born in 1920) was arrested in the early 80s for carrying weapons into the Federal Reserve building."
So some liberal judge let him out?
No, 'some liberal judge' didn't let him out.
And your moniker is an embarrassment to thought and thinking. Fool.
And I'm sure you don't watch MSNBC or find Letterman's joke about raping Palin's 14-year-old daughter amusing.
Just like you didn't savage conservatives when Tiller was killed. Hate's funny that way. You Democrats push it long enough, it becomes all you are.
I'm not a Democrat. And I didn't 'savage conservatives' when Tiller was killed.
I watch MSNBC to see what they are saying, just as I read and watch things from sources with which I don't agree all the time. And I think Letterman's a jerk for what he said. I also think your attitude (exhibited by the 'Obama is the new Hitler' moniker) is one of a fool.
To those of you who question where on the spectrum this nut shooter falls:
Anti-Semitism and Holocaust deniers are identified with Nazis, who are, by definition, right-wing extremists. Some of you here really get lost in your definitions.
Anti-Semitics and Holocaust deniers are by definition right wingers? Really?
Perhaps you would like to explain that further... How about 9/11 Truthers, of which this nut was also an adherent? Right wingers, too? It appears that The New Editor is under attack from morons across the political spectrum today....
"Anti-Semitism and Holocaust deniers are identified with Nazis, who are, by definition, right-wing extremists."
Jeremiah Wirght is a right-winger? Louis Farrakhan is a right-winger? Really? You sure you want to stand by that remark?
BTW, "National Socialism" AKA "Nazi" is NOR related to the political and economic system referred to as "Socialism."
Do some research before popping off that it is the same. It isn't.
Sam:
the NAZI party was the National SOCIALIST party, dumkopf. Mussolini was a Socialist through and through. The difference between fascists and communists is the difference between NATIONAL socialism and INTERNATIONAL socialism. The Nazi's, like the Communists, were reactionaries. That is not the same thing as a conservative (especially not an American, as distinguished from European conservative). The Nazi flag was RED because they were socialists. Come back and try again when you manage to get the basic facts down.
Rogers is a moron? Really?
I look over your comments and I simply shake my head... amazing. You're not a very reflective person, are you?
BTW, David Rogers:
Nazis were not socialists. They did not believe in government control of the means of production or nationalization of any industries. The Nazis believed in private property ownership and private ownership of businesses. Most people incorrectly assume because they called themselves "National Socialists" that it means they had something to do with 'Socialism'. They can call themselves anything they want. If they are not for public ownership of industry and property, they are not Socialists. Generally, right wingers want to try to distance themselves from the Nazis because to people who understand economics and politics, it is obvious that Nazism is the result of one tilting too far to the ideologial right. Republicans often try to head that off by claiming the Nazis were "Socialists" and using the proof of their name. Dont be fooled by this. Hitler himself said (as quoted by wikipedia): "Nazism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism... Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not." He stated "I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative".
'Ed',
Why do you sign one comment as 'Ed' and another as 'Sam'? By the bye, you quote Wikipedia to bolster your argument? Really??
Ed:
I think you are buttressing my point with the Hitler quote: he is distinguishing different flavors of socialist doctrine. Hitler is attacking "Marxist" (i.e., Russian) socialism as different from, and inferior to "true" (i.e., Nazi) socialism. Hitler is not interested in the liberal (what we now call conservative) tradition, capitalism, free markets, and the rest. Like Mussolini, he believed in everything within the state, everything for the state, nothing outside the state. This is leftist doctrine. Hitler was, like his fellow German Marx, a reactionary shocked by the changes wrought by the modern world, capitalism, internationalism, democracy, and the traditions of England. Leftists often confuse this reactionary attitude with conservatism. Not the same thing.
Sam:
Read Liberal Fascism. It IS a history book. Beyond that, you might want to read Mussolini's manifesto or the 1933 Nazi Party platform, or Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The economics of fascism is undeniably leftist and collectivist. Your rantings and susceptibility to propaganda don't really make you a quality spokesman for your team. The term "right" was attached to the fascists by the communists. But there is no serious question that the Nazi-Communist schism was an internecine affair of the anti-liberal, anti-capitalist, anti-rule of law left.
"Liberal Fasciasm is NOT a history book; it is a diatribe from Jonah Goldberg, and its title strives for an irony that it misses.
I have read the other two works, years ago. And, no: fascism is not socialism; it never was and it never will be, Sorry you can't seem to fathom that.
There is just nothing like the certainty of a book critic who has not read the book.
The title was first written, first spoken by a leading English man of the left, H.G. Wells, who, at Cambridge called for "a liberal fascism, an enlightened naziism." If you read books instead of (literally) judging them by their covers, you might learn something. And, of course, I did not say that fascism is socialism; I said fascism is socialist. You must learn to be a more careful reader. Fascism is particular brand of socialism, dear boy. If you read more widely, you might understand that.
To Tom:
There are two of us in my office. We share a computer. Any other silly questions?
Sure. I believe you... which is probably why you share the same e-mail address too.
David Rogers, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Anyway, a far right-wing fringe freak shot people at the National Holocaust Museum today, so the DHS report was no the money.
Excellent retort, 'Sam' or 'Ed' or whoever you are.
By the bye, 'Ed/Sam,' where does the 9/11 truther movement stand on the political spectrum?
Dear sock puppet:
Let's review the facts, shall we. You say Naziism is "far-right." I say it is socialist. Let's use your source, wikipedia. "The 25 point Program of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) was proclaimed by Adolf Hitler at a large public gathering in Munich on February 24, 1920 when the group was still known as the German Workers Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or DAP).[4] The party kept the program when it changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party in April 1920 and it remained the official party program throughout the party's existence - though many of the demands listed in it were not carried out after the NSDAP eventually came to power." Let's examine the platform, shall we?
Wow. You seem like an Internet tough guy with that kind of salty language.
I'm impressed.
David Rogers, I have read enough of Lucianne's little boy over the years to know that he is about as lucid as you.
'Sam' ... er, 'Ed' you seem like an Internet tough guy too.
Same IP address. Same e-mail address. Same 'rough and tumble attitude.' Very impressive!
Dear sock puppet:
Wow! Upgrading from profanity to ad hominem attacks in one easy step. That's impressive. Here are the facts: The Nazi platform called for: (plank 7)"We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens." Hmm.... that sounds like socialism. How could that be? (10) The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Hmm... That sounds like... Michelle Obama ("“Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed”) 11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery. Hmmm... No income from stocks or bonds. Sounds like.. socialism 12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits. wait... that can't be right ... that sounds like socialism!!
How can all this Naziism be socialism? How can it be that the National SOCIALIST party calls for SOCIALISM?
This is just too confusing. Let's continue, shall we? Plank #13. "We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts)." Wait...nationalisation... that's another word for SOCIALISM!!! #14 We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries. (Sounds like the plan for Government Motors!) #15 We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare. Well, that's definitely not right-wing, is it, bucko? #16 "We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate COMMUNALIZATION of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality." #17 "We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land." #18 "We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race." Onerous state regulation of the banking sector. I forget, is that a right-wing proposal? This is so confusing...
I could go on, but I think I've proven the point. For those who care, go ahead and review the post on wikipedia.
Planks #20, 21 and 25 amplify the point. For further edification, read Mussolini (the original fascist) on what is fascism: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm
To Tom & David, as entertaining a duo as Sonny & Cher:
The Wikipedia citing was included here: http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=5668
Tom:
Good work, Closeau! Of course it's the same IP address! It's a shared computer! Good work!
Thanks 'Sam' .. er, 'Ed.' How long have you shared the same e-mail address?
Is that because of the 'shared computer' too?
Boys, boys, boys!
Go ahead and continue to believe that Nazis and fascists are socialists; that's laughable, but then, right-wingers are laughable, so it adds up. A right-wing extremist shot people at the National Holocaust Museum, and that is a FACT. But you guys probably think he was a socialist.
Well, actually, he appears to be at least a socialist sympathizer; he was a member of a group called American friends of the BNP--the British National Party. For more on the BNP, I suggest you look here:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/04/24/new_statesman_bnp_is_to_the_left_of_labour
Hey Tom: look at the form a poster fills out. Why bother to change the e-mail address on a shared computer? We both have the same views (after all, we are brothers!)
Get over it, Closeau.
Thanks for clearing that up, 'Ed/Sam.'
Did your parents have any other children that lived?
We'd love to stay and toy with you historically inaccurate buffoons, but we've wasted enough of our time.
Don't forget to read some (real, accurate) history!
I can't help but notice that, when confronted with facts (the actual National SOCIALIST platform), the sock puppet decided to hurl insults.
That is so persuasive. Genius!
Leaving already? Darn!
And here I was learning so much about intellectual honesty and how to be a no-nonsense Internet tough guy!! Please come back and teach me more: How else will I learn?
God bless Stephen Johns. And may God bless his survivors and fellows.
They are heroes who prevented another Virginia Tech-style massacre.
That's the damned truth.
That man was a hero who probably saved many lives. What a waste of a good life ... taken by that scumbag.
What is remarkable here is the extreme age of the perp. I seriously doubt that the political thinking, even if it remained rational after all those years, of a man born in 1920 can stand any comparison to any popular viewpoint today. Roosevelt perhaps, but who of us has strong feelings about Wilkie, Landon, or Wallace? I'm sure they were fresh and significant figures in von Brunn's memory.
That so many comments were generated concerning the rather peripheral issue of this aged man's falling on one side of the great artificial left/right divide and the semantic quibbling over whether or not 'National Socialist' means socialist says more about the serious nature of this divide. More so than ever the worst since the civil war. I for one am sick of it and chalk the whole thing up to the decline and fall of once proud America, formerly a beacon to the world, now an ever more embarrassing joke. Mr. Elia, you have here an elegant, intelligent, readable blog that I never fail to check every day. It's a pity that today it took on the appearance of the Craigs List WoPo forum.
I agree and apologize for the nature of the argument, but will back down no longer from 'sock puppets' putting forth false, or in this case, multiple identities in order to make political points based on fallacious info.
That's just how I feel.
Well, I don't apologize for the argument.
The argument began when "Sam" wrote: "A little too "right-wing extreme" for me." Sam's assertion that was that Naziism is "right-wing." That is not true. And it is important that this lie be identified as such. Leftists like "Sam" (and Stalin) misindentify fascism as "right-wing" as a smear against right-wingers, and a smear against fascists. For them, it's a two-fer. Because Naziism (and fascism generally) is identified as the worst evil of the 20th century (even if Communism [international socialsim] killed more people), it is important for conservatives that the fascist fringe be properly identified--on the left. The syllogism goes like this: (1) fascism=evil. For leftists, the next step is (2) conservatism=fascism, therefore, (3) conservatism=evil. Logically, it makes sense. The problem is that step (2) is a lie. In fact, step (2), accurately described is (2) socialism > fascism, therefore (3) socialism > evil. And, if you understand the syllogism correctly, it then comes as no surprise to learn that socialism killed more people than fascism.
David Rogers, you're still wrong; fascism and Nazism is right-wing extremism.
You can look it up! Bye!
Argument?
Facts? Reasoning? Missing. Ability to notice argument was demolished completely in answers 16.2, 16.2.1, and 16.2.1.1? Reading comprehension? Epic Fail.
David Rogers: "Epic Fail."
Are you 12? From the Council on Foreign Relations: What is right-wing domestic terrorism? Terrorism motivated by opposition to federal taxation and regulation, the United Nations, other international organizations, and the U.S. government itself, as well as by a hatred of racial and religious minorities. This type of terrorism, which has roots in the activities of white supremacist groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and antigovernment groups, flourished in the 1980s. FBI officials say right-wing militants—including skinheads, neo-Nazis, militia members, and the so-called Christian Patriot movement—now pose America’s most serious domestic terrorist threat. What attacks have been conducted by right-wing terrorists? Examples of right-wing domestic terrorism include: the April 1995 Oklahoma City bombing; the July 1996 bombing at Centennial Park during the Atlanta Olympics, which killed one person and injured more than 100; * the summer 1999 shooting sprees by lone gunmen targeting minorities in the Chicago and Los Angeles metropolitan areas, which left three people dead. Law enforcement officials have prevented planned attacks on government offices and other right-wing terrorist plots. http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/terror.htm Y'know, Davey, add to this the Pittsburgh cop shootings, Dr. Tiller's assassination and yesterday's Holocaust Museum shootings If the shoe fits, it must be the one with the right-wing tip.
Sockpuppet:
Some people you can't teach. Your initial (discredited) claim is that this crazy guy was some kind of right-winger. The evidence conclusively rebuts your claim. You change the subject. What are you going to claim next? That the Columbine killers were right-wingers? Give up. You're just embarrassing yourself.
Davey, Davey, Davey:
Your l'il Internet clichés: "sock puppet", "epic fail", etc., are quite junior-high-ish. Anyway, I don't imagine you've read, listened to or watched anything other than right-wing blogs, Limbots or FOX news over the past couple of days, but it is conventional wisdom that this is the act of a right-wing extremist. Given your naive comments on this blog, I suppose that I'm arguing with a "true believer." Hell, you might even be a "birther" for all I know about you. Believe what you want to believe. After all, you think that Jonah Goldberg is an historian!
'Sam':
David can defend himself, but just an FYI for you -- this wacko hated blacks, Jews, Catholics, neo-cons, Bush, and McCain. He was also a 9/11 Truther who believed that Catholics were responsible for the collapse of the Roman Empire. This mixture, as you well know, is the 'perfect definition' of a 'right-wing extremist.' Now please explain to me again why anyone should take seriously a person who continually makes his argument without acknowledging the obvious holes, cites Wikipedia and OpEd News as objective sources in an attempt to prove his points, and trumpets the Conventional Wisdom as proof of his argument. Seriously, I want to better understand your people in order that I might make the proper contributions to help better the plight of your under-equipped and unfortunate progeny....
Tommy, read the CFR definitions. They speak for themselves.
The shooter was also a "birther," which you didn't mention in your hissy fit, which is a Gold Standard issue for nuts on the right-wing fringe. Yeah, he's obviously insane. A lot more "right-wing extremism" there than whatever you seem to think he is. Gee, Tommy! Maybe he's a socialist! Isn't that conservative's fave bogieman these days? You righties are a strange bunch.
You're right, I forgot to include the fact that he is a 'birther' too.
You see, when you bring up one of my oversights, I acknowledge it. It's not that hard. You can do it too; I know you can!! Now lemme get something straight: The Council on Foreign Relations is now the arbitor on what constitutes 'right-wing extremism'? Interesting that. And no, I don't think he's a socialist, because I see no evidence of that ... but good try! But I do think he is insane, because, well, there is 'some' evidence of that. Now do us all a favor and use condoms, will ya? And I just don't mean when you're getting laid -- that's not good enough. I think you should wear the suckers 24/7. Two of 'em. I mean, you care about the rest of humanity, right?
From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/10/AR2009061003495.html?hpid=topnewsâÂ%C2%8AÂ%C2%82=AR&sid=ST2009061101157):
Todd Blodgett, a former Reagan White House aide who later worked with several extremist groups, met regularly with von Brunn in the 1990s and early 2000s. "Von Brunn is obsessed with Jewish people," Blodgett said. "He had equal contempt for both Jews and blacks, but if he had to pick one group to wipe out, he'd always say it would be Jews." Blodgett was part-owner of Resistance Records, which distributed music by white racist groups, and worked for Willis Carto, the founder of Liberty Lobby, a radical right group. According to Blodgett and a Washington lawyer who met with FBI and IRS agents who used Blodgett as an informant on white supremacist groups, Blodgett worked as a paid informer for federal investigators early this decade. Von Brunn apparently supported himself through much of the 1980s and '90s by distributing copies of the Spotlight, the Liberty Lobby's racist newspaper. "A lot of people like Von Brunn made some good money taking those around to senior homes, restaurants, gun shows and places like that," Blodgett said. Blodgett said that he never filed reports to the FBI specifically about Von Brunn but that "he was probably around when I was wired." In his conversations with Von Brunn, "you'd get the impression that he was intelligent and a bit off. . . . He was much more adept at understanding the Internet than any other white supremacist of that generation," Blodgett said. "He was very, very interested in the potential for Resistance Records to bring in a new generation of supremacists who were a cut above the knuckle-dragger types." Von Brunn sometimes spoke of having fought for the wrong side in World War II, Blodgett said, and the two men sometimes attended meetings in Arlington County of the American Friends of the British National Party, which raised funds for the British white supremacist group. On Dec. 7, 1981, he walked into the Federal Reserve headquarters on Constitution Avenue NW with a handgun and threatened to take members of the Board of Governors, including then-Chairman Paul A. Volcker, hostage. Police said he had an 11-page document, which he characterized as an exposé of an "international bankers' conspiracy to rule all nations from one central seat of government." Court records said he intended to place them under citizens arrest and charge them with treason. At his trial, von Brunn said that his goal was to "deport all Jews and blacks from the white nations" and that statistics on IQs of black and white Americans "proved that there is one race that is better than another." He also testified that "Jews were the greatest liars that have ever afflicted mankind."
'Sam':
I read the article, and was especially amused by the last line, one that is probably the most amazing part of the piece. But you see, I never said he wasn't an anti-Semite. Of course, I shouldn't hold your apparent learning disability against you; you can't help it. Go ahead, try and find the things have pointed out to you -- show some curiosity. I know, it's hard when you are so superior .. but give it a shot! You can do it!
Oh, and the British National Party that Von Brunn respected so much?
From the Guardian: Prominent members of the British National party are today revealed as Nazi-sympathisers and racists with abhorrent views on such diverse issues as teenage violence, David Beckham and even David Cameron's deceased son, Ivan. The revelations undermine the party's attempts to paint itself in a more moderate light before the local and European elections and threaten to derail the electoral ambitions of its leader, Nick Griffin, who is standing as a prospective MEP. At a time when BNP activists are claiming a surge in support in the polls, a reflection, they say, of mounting public outrage over MPs' expenses, the party has been keen to portray itself as a viable alternative to mainstream political parties... t claims the apparent groundswell in support is down to the "British public waking from the long, deep sleep". Much of the BNP's recent success has been down to its ability to shake off the patina of far-right extremism that has alienated most voters since its inception. But this month the veneer slipped when it emerged that a Salford-based BNP candidate in the European elections had set his Facebook status to read "Wogs go home". Eddy O'Sullivan, 49, wrote: "They are nice people - oh yeah - but can they not be nice people in the fucking Congo or... bongo land or whatever?" O'Sullivan, who also joined an internet group called "Fuck Islam", denied that the comments were racist and insisted they were made in private conversations between individuals. "I also may have had a drink at the time," he added.... t claims the apparent groundswell in support is down to the "British public waking from the long, deep sleep". Much of the BNP's recent success has been down to its ability to shake off the patina of far-right extremism that has alienated most voters since its inception. But this month the veneer slipped when it emerged that a Salford-based BNP candidate in the European elections had set his Facebook status to read "Wogs go home". Eddy O'Sullivan, 49, wrote: "They are nice people - oh yeah - but can they not be nice people in the fucking Congo or... bongo land or whatever?" O'Sullivan, who also joined an internet group called "Fuck Islam", denied that the comments were racist and insisted they were made in private conversations between individuals. "I also may have had a drink at the time," he added.... More fun from the far-right here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/31/bnp-european-elections-facebook-expose
Ooops! I forgot this part from the Guardian article from above:
But the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight has spent months infiltrating the far right's network of websites and chatrooms and found that many BNP activists share O'Sullivan's views.
Well, Tommy, someday you might be able to acknowledge that these were the actions of a member of the far-right.
But I'm not holding my breath; you really don't seem that bright.
Yes, 'Sam,' you are way too smart for me.
It's a mismatch; I give up. You're just too good! Maybe someday i'll be able to compete! I know! I'll start reading Wikipedia, OpEd News, and the Guardian. I'm sure I'll learn more better then!!!
By the way 'Sam/Ed,' forgive me, but I always ask this of guys like you: how old are you?
Please tell me you are not over 30... you're younger than 30, right?
From Paul Krugman in the NY Times, some food for thought:
Back in April, there was a huge fuss over an internal report by the Department of Homeland Security warning that current conditions resemble those in the early 1990s — a time marked by an upsurge of right-wing extremism that culminated in the Oklahoma City bombing. Conservatives were outraged. The chairman of the Republican National Committee denounced the report as an attempt to “segment out conservatives in this country who have a different philosophy or view from this administration” and label them as terrorists. But with the murder of Dr. George Tiller by an anti-abortion fanatic, closely followed by a shooting by a white supremacist at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the analysis looks prescient. There is, however, one important thing that the D.H.S. report didn’t say: Today, as in the early years of the Clinton administration but to an even greater extent, right-wing extremism is being systematically fed by the conservative media and political establishment. Now, for the most part, the likes of Fox News and the R.N.C. haven’t directly incited violence, despite Bill O’Reilly’s declarations that “some” called Dr. Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer,” that he had “blood on his hands,” and that he was a “guy operating a death mill.” But they have gone out of their way to provide a platform for conspiracy theories and apocalyptic rhetoric, just as they did the last time a Democrat held the White House. And at this point, whatever dividing line there was between mainstream conservatism and the black-helicopter crowd seems to have been virtually erased. Exhibit A for the mainstreaming of right-wing extremism is Fox News’s new star, Glenn Beck. Here we have a network where, like it or not, millions of Americans get their news — and it gives daily airtime to a commentator who, among other things, warned viewers that the Federal Emergency Management Agency might be building concentration camps as part of the Obama administration’s “totalitarian” agenda (although he eventually conceded that nothing of the kind was happening). But let’s not neglect the print news media. In the Bush years, The Washington Times became an important media player because it was widely regarded as the Bush administration’s house organ. Earlier this week, the newspaper saw fit to run an opinion piece declaring that President Obama “not only identifies with Muslims, but actually may still be one himself,” and that in any case he has “aligned himself” with the radical Muslim Brotherhood. And then there’s Rush Limbaugh. His rants today aren’t very different from his rants in 1993. But he occupies a different position in the scheme of things. Remember, during the Bush years Mr. Limbaugh became very much a political insider. Indeed, according to a recent Gallup survey, 10 percent of Republicans now consider him the “main person who speaks for the Republican Party today,” putting him in a three-way tie with Dick Cheney and Newt Gingrich. So when Mr. Limbaugh peddles conspiracy theories — suggesting, for example, that fears over swine flu were being hyped “to get people to respond to government orders” — that’s a case of the conservative media establishment joining hands with the lunatic fringe. It’s not surprising, then, that politicians are doing the same thing. The R.N.C. says that “the Democratic Party is dedicated to restructuring American society along socialist ideals.” And when Jon Voight, the actor, told the audience at a Republican fund-raiser this week that the president is a “false prophet” and that “we and we alone are the right frame of mind to free this nation from this Obama oppression,” Mitch McConnell, the Senate minority leader, thanked him, saying that he “really enjoyed” the remarks. Credit where credit is due. Some figures in the conservative media have refused to go along with the big hate — people like Fox’s Shepard Smith and Catherine Herridge, who debunked the attacks on that Homeland Security report two months ago. But this doesn’t change the broad picture, which is that supposedly respectable news organizations and political figures are giving aid and comfort to dangerous extremism. What will the consequences be? Nobody knows, of course, although the analysts at Homeland Security fretted that things may turn out even worse than in the 1990s — that thanks, in part, to the election of an African-American president, “the threat posed by lone wolves and small terrorist cells is more pronounced than in past years.” And that’s a threat to take seriously. Yes, the worst terrorist attack in our history was perpetrated by a foreign conspiracy. But the second worst, the Oklahoma City bombing, was perpetrated by an all-American lunatic. Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.
'Sam':
Generally speaking, I think Krugman is full of crap. Where were his condemnations of all of the Bush conspiracy crap spouted by not only Dem pols, but leadership like McAuliffe and Dean? It would comprise a list as long as your arm. How about Sen. Fritz Hollings claiming the Iraq War was the result of a Jewish conspiracy? Remember that one? Where were the condemnations of this stuff? It wasn't there. And again, you have presented a one-way express of ideas to back up your suppositions: Wikipedia (laughable), OpEd News (a left-wing opinion site), the Guardian (definitely left-wing), and now Paul Krugman (a 'progressive'). A young guy with a kid is dead because some wacko -- who wasn't one-tenth of the man -- shot him, and all you can do is turn it into some kind of political event with which you attempt to gain advantage. And you're not even very good at it. But you think you are. I don't know which is worse. It's just so sad.
"So sad."
The thing that's sad is there is a dead security guard, killed by a right-wing extremist. Sorry, Tommy; I didn't turn it into "some kind of political event." Read and listen to your right-wing media--Rush Limbo comes to mind; Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck, too. Their rhetoric doesn't cause this stuff, but it sure adds to the seething anger that right-wing extremists have exhibited in recent months. It's obvious to anybody paying attention. By the way--to remind you again, Tommy--the Wikipedia cite wasn't mine; it was in the piece I pasted here. Anyway, it happened to be accurate, as was everything I've shared here. A "one-way express?" I merely believe--like many observers in this country--that these are the acts of right-wing extremists and that the DHS report was right. And you? A right-wing extremist denier? You claim, what? That you are "fair & balanced?" You mean like FOX News?
'Sam':
I feel very sorry for people like you, I really do. So incredibly blind, yet they think they see everything. It's so very sad. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but you have so much to learn. Take care...
"By the way--to remind you again, Tommy--the Wikipedia cite wasn't mine; it was in the piece I pasted here."
OK--now that's just a flat-out lie. ...from your earlier post (#10)... Hitler himself said (as quoted by wikipedia): "Nazism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism... Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not." He stated "I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative". #10 Ed on 2009-06-10 16:00 (Reply) ...that's you, using wikipedia as a source, and introducing it as an authority into this discussion. Not smart to introduce a clumsy lie like that into a thread like this that anyone can check. Try harder. Or go home.
BTW, Tommy, it figures that a guy like you would think a Nobel Prize winner like Krugman is "full of crap."
I mean, he's not a FOX News commentator like Dick Morris, Ollie North or Karl Rove, right?
Economics. What's your point? Are you claiming that he's unqualified to comment on anything other than economics?
No, that's not what I'm claiming, 'Sam.'
But you seemed to claim that his prize for trade theory automatically makes him immune from criticism for what he writes in his column, specifically this particular one. I would note that Krugman writes mostly about things other than economic trade theory, and yes, I find him full of crap most of the time -- as I do most 'progressives.'
Tommy, BTW, pal: don't "feel sorry" for people like me. We aren't the sliver of a dying fringe. That would be people like you.
'Sam':
But I do feel sorry for you. I really do. Come on, tell me: How old are you? Please tell me you're under 30. Please!
By the way, your comment that I am part of 'a dying fringe' seems to prove my supposition that your argument about 'right-wing' extremists is simply a political attempt to paint those with whom you disagree with the broad brush of extremism.
Thank you. Nice job.
Yeah, Tommy. Let's let high school graduates like Rush Limbo and Sean Hannity define "right-wing extremism."
And, yes, you are part of a "dying fringe." Your "supposition" is of little interest to me, as you can't acknowledge that it's right-wing extremists who are shooting cops, doctors and security guards over the past couple of months. Who's making the "political attempt" here, Tommy? You, your blog, and the rest of your dying fringe.
"Who's making the "political attempt" here, Tommy? You, your blog, and the rest of your dying fringe."
Wow. That's another amazingly obvious lie. You know, Sam, if you are going to be a habitual liar, you should really be better at it. "looks like conservatives were off-base again when they bitched about the DHS report on right-wing extremists. The assassination of Dr. Tiller, the shooting at the National Holocaust Museum...Hmmm... A little too "right-wing extreme" for me. #3 Sam on 2009-06-10 14:16 (Reply)" What's that -- why, it's Sammy, making an attempt to score a cheap political point, right off the bat! Moron.
Sock Puppet:
Still missing the point nazi?right-wing nazi?conservative nazi=socialist=left-wing You, and the "conventional [lefitst] wisdom" can call a skunk a rose, but that doesn't change the smell. Yes, this anti-Semite, was, like Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan, a nut-job. This anti-Semite, like the assassins who killed Malcolm X, was a violent extremist. And, like Wright and Farrakhan, he was not a right-winger.
Poor, poor David.
So clichéd, so ignorant, such a regurgitator of right-wing talking points. Probably a "birther," too.
I'm sorry, "Sammy", I missed your devastating rebuttal where you proved that the National Socialist Party platform wasn't a Socialist. (see 16.2, 16.2.1, 16.2.1.1)
Can you show me the "right-wing" part? No?
Davey, it's common knowledge.
But you are too uncommonly dumb to grasp where on the political spectrum Nazis would reside. Amazingly, jaw-droppingly uninformed. Find the FBI and similar body's definitions yourself. They're readily available.
"Common knowledge": the Earth is flat.
The Earth is the center of the universe. The atom is too small to be smashed for power. There will always be war in Europe. Arabs can't run democratic states. We have always been at war with Eastasia. Sam can't reason his way out of a paper bag.
Yeah, Davey, I guess that perhaps the most recognized pre-eminent authorities on Nazism, the Holocaust and right-wing hatred--the Simon Wiesenthal Center--would never call this type of crime "right-wing extremism." either:
http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/weitzman.pdf
'Sam':
Yesterday and the day before, I watched a guy on MSNBC from the Southern Poverty Law Center (I can't remember his name, Levin, I think) pretty much echo what I've been saying here. This must mean that he is also a 'fringe' member of the 'right-wing' extremist movement to which you believe people like David and me belong... Oh well, what can you do? Have a nice weekend 'Sam.' Try and stay away from the paint chips!
'Sam':
I thought you might want to read this: From James von Brunn's book, titled, "Kill the Best Gentiles," Von Brunn writes, “SOCIALISM, represents the future of the West.” (caps in original) Full quote: "Yockey, in his suppressed book Imperium, notes that MARXISM is seriously flawed because MARX, being a JEW, could not understand the real differences between CAPITALISM and SOCIALISM, which emanated from the WESTERN CULTURE-ORGANISM. Capitalism and Socialism are how a Nation (Family, People, Race) feels, thinks, and lives, and secondarily are ECONOMIC CONCEPTS. One [capitalism] is past history; the other, WESTERN SOCIALISM, represents the future of the West, and the end of JEWRY on Western soil. "The Age of Reason produced CAPITALISM in the West, the IDEA of rugged individualism: 'Every Man for Himself.' Freedom from authority: 'Don't tread on me!' At the same time, paradoxically, it was understood, that these rugged individuals should act in the best interest of the Nation-State. To the West ECONOMIC CAPITALISM meant: free trade, no personal income-tax, no state interference in money matters, private ownership, etc. USURY, however, was relegated outside the Pale, and proscribed. Capitalists found no fault with economically defeating, within the law, opposing economic groups. That was considered 'healthy competition.' European States, goaded by Bankers, also competed with one another. Often with disastrous results. During WWI it became painfully clear that the IDEA of 'rugged individualism' worked against the ARYAN NATION and its individual States. "WESTERN SOCIALISM, unlike Marxism/Communism and Capitalism, emanates not from Reason alone but from the ETHOS OF THE WEST. It expresses the instinctive and Intuitive feelings UNIQUE to the Aryan Nation. Its Idea is the Musketeers' cry: 'One for All and All for One!' The ingathering of the White Nation-States into ONE CULTURAL ORGANISM — its own territory and its own State in which to house, protect, and nurture the Nation — precludes Marxist inspired class warfare and hate-struggles between its component parts. The ECONOMY springs from the CULTURE. MONEY becomes merely a tool, a means of exchange, a storage of value — not an ILLUMINATI weapon.' (pp. 143-4). 'No intelligent person took MARX seriously. His Old Testament idea that work is evil — and New Testament idea that men and races are equally endowed — opposes Nature and the very Soul of the West.' Marxists, Bolsheviks, Communists denounce “'capitalist pigs.' While from behind the scenes — in the on-going battle to implement the PROTOCOLS OF ZION — all wars and revolutions are financed by JEW CAPITALISTS. (pp. 143-5.)"
Tommy, your need to quote an insane right-wing extremist for no apparent reason is quite illogical, like many of your rants on this topic.
I can only surmise that the thought of these right-wing extremist attacks over the past two months hit a little too close to home to hard-right conservatives such as you, and that you may recognize some of the shooters rhetoric in your own side's words: O'Reilly, Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. You are feverishly protective of your "right-wing" brand, aren't you, Tommy? Try to get out of the basement this weekend, Tommy; you need some fresh air.
Some men, you just can't reach.
Sammy-boy: Try this: You claim Nazi's are NOT socialists. We knocked that assertion down conclusively, using your own favorite source. You claim that THIS GUY is NOT a socialist. HE claims he is. HE attacks capitalism. YOU claim he's a "right-winger." HE attacks " CAPITALISM in the West, the IDEA of rugged individualism: 'Every Man for Himself.' Freedom from authority" and "free trade, no personal income-tax, no state interference in money matters, private ownership" and "the IDEA of 'rugged individualism." All the ideas that he attacks are the ideals espoused by modern conservatives, and despised by the modern left. So--to put it succinctly: Everything you've said about this man, this incident, and his politics, is wrong.
'Sam':
Actually, I'm not a 'hard-right conservative.' But you continue on, it's entertaining! By the way, did you actually read what that nut Von Brunn wrote? How is that in anyway the ranting of a right-winger? Seemed just like simple ranting of a lunatic to me. But it sort of kills the narrative, doesn't it? Oh well!
Let's put it on a postcard:
Sam: "nutcase killer is a right-winger" Nutcase killer: "WESTERN SOCIALISM represents the future of the West" Clear?
David's posting are an 'obsession,' while yours are what, an attempt to illustrate your alarmingly poor critical-thinking skills?
Hey Sammy:
Still an idiot? Oh, wait. You can't answer the question, you can't back up your ridiculous assertions (national SOCIALIST party isn't socialist), so you change the subject. So sophisticated.
Tommy & Davey:
(Sonny & Cher?) Still confused over the definition of your cellmate? Not sure how to defend your right flank? Huh. Imagine that. Two dumb fucks who don't know the historical definitions of "right" and "left." Yes, idiots! The Holocaust shooter was...was...was...what? A socialist? He was a right-wing fanatic, much like at least some of your bunk-mates here. "Birthers," are ya, boys? Will you be reading something that you actually didn't find online one of these days?
'Sam':
Actually, I don't think I said he was a socialist, I think I said he wasn't a right-wing extremists in the vane you keep insisting on. I posted an excerpt of his writing and said he was a nut job. It was pretty obvious, I thought. And you once again try and conflate him with people on the Right, including Dave and me, as his 'cellmates.' Nice. Neither one of us are 'birthers' either, but why would that stop you from making false accusations? Putz.
"cellmate"?
So, now conservatives who dare to question your infallible wisdom are criminals? Ah, liberal tolerance. Smells like bullshit.
Freaked-out right-wing extremist-deniers--like the jaw-droppers on this silly website--hate this, from Media Matters (they think it's a---shhhhhh!----"liberal" plot!!!) :
his week, the country's attention was captured by the horrific shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, allegedly by James W. von Brunn, an 88-year-old man with ties to white supremacist and anti-Semitic organizations. The fatal shooting came just two months after an April 7 Department of Homeland Security report detailing potential increases in right-wing extremism. As Media Matters for America documented, the DHS report was immediately and vehemently rejected by numerous conservative commentators, such as Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, and David Asman, who portrayed it as an illegitimate and politically motivated assault on conservatives. (Media Matters Senior Fellow Karl Frisch puts the attacks in even broader perspective here.) Following the Holocaust Memorial Museum attack, these commentators faced criticism for their earlier dismissiveness. Some have since unconvincingly (and in the case of Joe Scarborough, inaccurately) defended their past assessment, and a handful of reporters and analysts are still engaging in falsehoods and inconsistencies in criticizing the DHS report. But on Fox News, Shepard Smith took a different position -- for which he was attacked by conservatives -- saying that the report "was a warning to us all. And it appears now that they were right." The day before the Holocaust Memorial Museum attack, Media Matters Senior Fellow Eric Boehlert wrote that Fox News and its hosts "will have more right-wing vigilantism to explain." He added that "militia-style vigilante rhetoric has become a cornerstone of the conservative media movement in America, and it's now proudly championed by Fox News on a nearly hourly basis." (He also appeared on CNN this week.) While right-wing media are certainly not legally culpable for any recent attacks, they are responsible for promoting a culture of fear, paranoia, and violence that is anti-government in the extreme -- a culture in which extremists, including von Brunn and Richard Poplawski, who fatally shot three Pittsburgh police officers, were apparently immersed. Poplawski was convinced that the Obama administration was going to take away his guns. Even though no evidence of such a policy exists, right-wing commentators and news organizations made the claim repeatedly before the shooting and have continued to do so since. Predictably, conservative media figures responded to the museum shooting by attempting to shift attention away from themselves and onto political liberals and even President Obama himself. On June 10, the day of the museum shooting, financial analyst and radio host Jim Lacamp said on Fox News that "we have an administration that's really done a lot of class warfare, a lot of class-baiting. And so, it sets the stage for social unrest." That same day, conservative Tammy Bruce wrote that the Obama administration's "increasing anti-Israel rhetoric and the pandering to the Jew-hating world Arab world ... encourages all the beasts among us." Newsmax.com published an op-ed, cited on Friday by Michael Savage, claiming that Obama "is most certainly creating a climate of hate against" Jews. Colorado radio host Bob Newman even raised questions about whether Obama's recent visit to a concentration camp, or his statement about Israeli settlements, were factors in the shooting. But as always, the most virulent reality-denier was Rush Limbaugh. Limbaugh claimed that von Brunn "is a leftist if anything." He said that Obama is "ramping up hatred for Israel" and that "anti-Jew rhetoric comes from the American left." He claimed that MSNBC broadcasts "hate 24/7." Despite the right wing's repeated use of violent, revolutionary rhetoric, Limbaugh said that it was actually Obama who "thrives and needs chaos" to succeed. And in response to Shepard Smith, he remarked that the "claim that the atmosphere is somehow more violently anti-Obama is simply preposterous." Indeed, Smith's remarks were the exception for the right. Despite its love of fearmongering, Fox News spent the 24 hours after the von Brunn shooting downplaying it. And on his broadcast that night, Bill O'Reilly, who hypocritically and incorrectly criticized the media for a supposed lack of coverage after the shooting death of Army recruiter Pvt. William Long, and who stokes the anger of viewers whenever it suits him politically, barely mentioned the shooting and instead featured what he called a "very important story" on gay penguins. "Do they wear tight T-shirts?" he asked, laughing. During the two shows after the shooting, Hannity barely mentioned it. Other major stories this week: Newt in the news This was a big week for former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who is clearly attempting to position himself as the new (aka, old) voice of the GOP. (And according to USA Today, he's in the running.) Newt, who had previously backed off of referring to Judge Sonia Sotomayor as a "racist," began the week by modifying his argument and repeating the dubious claim that she "clearly supported racial quotas" in the Frank Ricci case. He followed it up at a congressional Republican fundraiser by proudly declaring that he was "not a citizen of the world," saying that "the entire concept is intellectual nonsense and stunningly dangerous." CNN's Candy Crowley and CQ Politics' Jonathan Allen reported Gingrich's statement without noting that President Ronald Reagan made similar remarks while addressing the United Nations in 1982. (You would think that Gingrich, a former history teacher, would have known better.) After Media Matters documented the oversight, MSNBC's David Shuster and Keith Olbermann, as well as by NBC's Brian Williams, subjected Gingrich's remarks to scrutiny. Newt closed the week by reacting to a Weekly Standard article discussing the ongoing U.S. practice of reading Miranda rights to detainees. On Fox News' Hannity, Gingrich said that it was "unimaginable. It's worse than anything Jimmy Carter ever did. It's worse than anything that President Bill Clinton ever did." In doing so, he ignored the part of the article reporting that the FBI also Mirandized people at "specific bases" during the Bush administration. Newt's factually challenged analysis has come to be so legendary that even MSNBC's Mike Barnicle felt compelled to ask, "[W]hy would anyone pay attention to anything he says?" It's a good question. Perhaps it's because networks like Fox News do whatever they can to make Gingrich, who hasn't held any office or official position since 1998, relevant. Health care reform is coming, and the news is already making me sick All three national networks covered a Thursday town hall meeting that Obama held in Wisconsin, during which he laid out his health care proposals in detail. And yet, not one of them reported on the substance of his remarks, focusing instead on a note he wrote for a 10-year-old girl who was skipping school. On Friday, NPR's Mara Liasson claimed that the American Medical Association opposes a public plan as a component of health care reform, even though the AMA had backtracked the same day, stating that it was "willing to consider other variations of a public plan that are currently under discussion in Congress." Flaws in a New York Times story the day before about the AMA's position were the subject of Media Matters Senior Fellow Jamison Foser's column this week. And during a Wednesday interview with Pennsylvania Sen. Bob Casey, MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell freely editorialized, lecturing him on how current proposals seemingly would "drive the deficit into these stratospheric numbers" and complaining that senators were engaging in "gobbledygook" on the issue. The need for accurate and impartial reporting on impending legislation is made all the more acute by the long history and prevalence of misinformation from media conservatives on the issue. On Thursday, Limbaugh began pulling out the stops, sounding not unlike O'Donnell in the process. "And it's all about control," he said. "It's not about cost. This man's not worried about the cost of anything. He doesn't care what anything costs: a trip to New York for a date -- $12 trillion in debt over 10 years? He doesn't care what things cost." He went on to hypothesize that "exercise freaks ... are the ones putting stress on the health care system" because they keep getting injured. Buchanan continues to test how much MSNBC will tolerate Media Matters has already documented Pat Buchanan's racially charged and often sexist campaign against Sotomayor. Despite his recent (and past) behavior, however, MSNBC has provided Buchanan with a prominent platform from which to spew his invective. This week, Foser asked a question MSNBC -- which in the past has had to fire Michael Savage and Don Imus for their remarks -- should answer: just what would Pat Buchanan have to say to be fired from the network? Well, during this past week, Buchanan was curiously absent from much of MSNBC's commentary. Was it a sign that the network might be re-evaluating its relationship with one of its favorite "analysts"? If so, it should take note of the fact that Buchanan is set to host what the Southern Poverty Law Center called a "prominent white nationalist" at the upcoming conference of The American Cause, a Buchanan-led organization. Conservative Misinformation U Here now, for your enjoyment, is the graduating class, whose standouts are too numerous to name, of Conservative Misinformation University, 2009. It would be funnier if it weren't true. For America's sake, they should have been held back. This week's media columns This week's media columns from the Media Matters Senior Fellows: Eric Boehlert prophetically details why O'Reilly and Fox News will have more right-wing vigilantism to explain; Jamison Foser explains why AMA reporting needs a second opinion; and Karl Frisch has something to say about that DHS report. Don't forget to order your autographed copy of Eric Boehlert's compelling new book, Bloggers on the Bus: How the Internet Changed Politics and the Press (Free Press, May 2009). If you use the social networking site Facebook, be sure to join the official Media Matters page and those of our senior fellows Eric Boehlert, Jamison Foser, and Karl Frisch as well. You can also follow Media Matters, Boehlert, Foser, and Frisch on Twitter. This weekly wrap-up was compiled by John V. Santore, an associate at Media Matters. (Shhhh! These guys think that right-wing extremism is actually LEFT-WING!) Of course, they also think that Sarah Palin is a national candidate! http://mediamatters.org/columns/200906120037
David Brock's Web site? You're invoking David Brock's Web site?
LOL!
What a surprise.
Once again, when slam-dunked on the facts, Sammy-boy goes and hides in his momma's skirts (David "Bill Clinton is a mafia co-conspirator" Brock.") No sign of intelligent life here. Wow. Lazy AND stupid.
BTW, we are visiting right-wing websites around the country--actually, the world--and we will continue to contest right-wing lies.
We are calling radio stations nationwide--including the ones who receive Rush Limbaugh's free feed in exchange for their ad time--and we will continue that effort, too. We want facts to get through; right-wing media is monolithic and preaches off the same hymnal. Rupert Murdoch and Clear Channel are being challenged, too. Get the facts, not the party line. We will be on websites and other media 24/7, sunrise until sunset. (Except this one; what a bore...)
"we"? What are you, a one-man sock-puppet left-wing conspiracy?
Or are you just a nut in his mom's basement with too much time on your hands, and no sense? |
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